doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

There is a Swinburn rifle marketed by Reilly for sale by Holts. All Swinburne's were made by Abingdon in Birmingham. This is the first Reilly Swinburn with a picture. There is a highly engraved example in the Royal Arms collection. There is a paragraph on Reilly's marketing of this rifle in the history Chapter IX, 54.
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...+++729+&refno=++230969&saletype=


The following comment was sent to Holt's:

Sirs: Just an observation: This Reilly Swinburn cannot be 1890. The Swinburn action was patented in 1872 and all production was done by Abingdon Works Co. Ltd., Birmingham. Reilly’s first advertisement for a Swinburn rifle (which he misspelled) is from October 1875. The Reilly 315 Oxford Street address changed to 277 Oxford Street in November 1881. The rifle is likely from the mid-1870's. Gene Williams.

Holts is advertising a Reilly pin-fire, SN 10456, a Lefaucheux/Lang forward under-lever, center break 16 gauge shotgun. This gun would date to December 1857 and is one of the 5 earliest known extant Reilly break-action guns, the others being
-- 10054 (September 1856 and possibly the oldest datable UK center-break gun in existence),
-- 10128 (December 1856),
-- 10344 (August 1857), and
-- 10655 (May 1858).
This gun has been added to Chapter III, 27 & 28

Edit: Based on an exchange of correspondence with Holt's the auction house has change the date of origin to circa 1857

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...725++++797+&refno=226474&image=8
REILLY, LONDON
A CASED 16-BORE PINFIRE DOUBLE-BARRELLED SPORTING GUN, serial no. 10456,
circa 1868, with faded brown damascus 30in. barrels, the top-rib signed 'REILLY, 302 NEW OXFORD STREET, LONDON', London proofs, rounded border and scroll engraved action with forward facing under-lever, borderline and scroll engraved top-tang featuring a vignette of a standing gamebird, border, scroll and gamescene engraved back-action locks signed 'REILLY, LONDON', engraved hammers, walnut butt-stock with chequered wrist (rubbed, small loss at head), iron heel-plate with scroll and gamescene engraved spur, gamescene engraved trigger-guard bow and chequered walnut splinter fore-end with cross-key fastener, in its makers oak case lined and compartmented in green baize, darkly stained parchment Reilly trade label and a small number of accessories

In reviewing records, based on the above pin-fire 10456, I've had to take a second look at the Reilly pin-fire shotgun 10458. I originally thought 10458 was converted from a muzzle loader to a center-break gun probably in the mid 1860's with a Jones U-L. However it may in fact be an original U-L Reilly pin-fire from December 1857, the first Reilly "Beringer style" under-the-guard lever pin-fire. Here is comparison of the engraving on 10456 and 10458. That wouldn't prove much except to date their engravings but the possibility is truly interesting:



And here is 10458
10458
https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...916++++906+&refno=103055&image=2
September 2016 : Sale A0916 Lot 906
E. M. REILLY, LONDON 
A 12-BORE PINFIRE DOUBLE-BARRELLED SPORTING-GUN, serial no. 10458, 
circa 1870, with twist iron 30in. browned barrels, the top rib signed 'E. M. REILLY 502 NEW OXFORD STREET LONDON, the breech-ends engraved with starbursts around the pin slots and scroll engraving to the rib-end, fully engraved long top-tang with sighting groove and carved percussion fences, border and scroll engraved action and locks, the latter signed 'REILLY, LONDON', chequered walnut butt-stock with engraved heel & toe-plates, Jones-type swing under-lever with ring thumb-piece, chequered walnut splinter fore-end and engraved iron furniture. 
Estimate £600-800



The Reilly's used at the 1858 trials were all Lang-Lefaucheax forward facing U-L's but the Beringer style was known. A Reilly gun sketched in 1859 has an under-the-trigger guard lever; Note one bite - clearly not a Jones U-L:

Argo44 , I think I have a gun like your Reilly sketch above . It is a French 16 bore pinfire Hedeline , made with the highest skill available on any gun. The opening lever pulls down, or forward, and springs back after opening. A friend shot a partridge or two with it a few years ago.

Thanks Daryl. Distinctly possible. I don't know what comprises a Berringer center-break as opposed to a Lefaucheax other than the under-lever. Lefaucheax had two bites while Lang, Reilly et.al. had one. Stephen Nash is doing the research. I'll ask him.

In the meantime, the history on p.94 has been edited - chapters III, 26, 28,29.

Here is a repost of the picture in the history: The gun sold at an auction with an under the trigger guard lever - SN unknown - strongly resembles the 1859 sketch.
1. Sketch of one of Reilly''s 1858 trial guns.
2. Book sketch
3. Auction Berringer-style



Reilly known extsnt pre-1860 break-action SxS pin-fire guns now include the following:
-- SN 10054 (Late summer 1856),
-- SN 10128 (December 1856),
-- SN 10355 (mid 1857),
-- SN 10456 (December 1857),
-- SN 10458 (December 1857), and
-- SN 10655 (May 1858):

In a conversation recently with David Trevallion and previously with Vic Venters both mentioned their suspicion which borders on certainty that UK center-break gun makers in the 1850's relied to a great extent on Barrels with lumps from Liege. This has been mentioned several times in the Reilly history at various places. The observations have been consolidated in III, 29 per below:

. . . .*27(a) 1856-1858: Obversations on the origin of early UK center-break SxS barrels and actions

Again, the role that Liège barrel and action makers played in this story of the origin of the UK center-break gun is not clear. However, very prominent gun sport writers have suspicions that it was much more important than most would admit and that there is a distinct possibility that Lang, Reilly and Blanch initially at least imported barrels with lumps from Liège. For instance a pin-fire center break Reilly shotgun exists dated to 1861 with a faint Belgian proof mark still visible.

There is historical logic for this conclusion. There were no barrel makers in London after 1847 - all British barrels came from Birmingham. Likewise London was the locus for the new gun and the innovations for making the actions initially came from that city.

It seems that Birmingham specifically ignored the center-break gun at this time in the 1850's. For instance there are no advertisements for or press references to Birmingham breech-loading actions until possibly a brief mention in summer 1859. (This may be debatable since there is a Reilly, originally a pin-fire, dated to 1858 with Birmingham proofs and a Breeden action; Breeden was a prominent Birmingham gun furniture and action maker. This gun may actually be later than the serial number should indicate).

Thus it seems unlikely that a few London gunmakers selling less than 100 guns in total from 1854-1857 could persuade a Birmingham factory to produce a few dozen SxS barrels with lumps, a new technology until the demand became truly important around late 1858 and 1859 when Purdey and many other London makers became involved.

This is further reinforced by the desultory efforts of Ely to produce a UK made pin-fire cartridge. The first Ely pin-fire game gun shell was introduced in April 1858 but it performed poorly. Ely didn't get it right until 1859. Ely was not going to produce artisanal cartridges and obviously didn't begin serious operation until the demand was proven.

Thus, logic would seem to insist that most of the 1850's UK center-break barrels with lumps up until around 1859 came from Liège, a conclusion supported to some extent by letters to "The Field" in late 1857.

(This will be subject to a follow on post on the topic of Birmingham's earliest involvement in making pin-fire game guns. This has been discussed previously in Stephen Nash's excellent "Pin-Fire Game-gun" line.)

With the above series on existing pre 1860 Reilly pin-fire guns, I’d like to address again SN 10641. The number should date to around May 1858 according to the dating chart. The gun was being assessed by an American appraisor in North Carolina. He queried Diggory Hadoke about the Reilly history, who put him in contact with me. It was previously discussed here:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=49








The gun was described as follows:
-- Originally a pin-fire, modified at some point to a center-fire (firing pins missing).
-- Lefaucheux-Lang style lever under the forearm
-- single bite receiver
-- 30" Damascus barrels.
-- 13 & 14 bore (on both barrels)
-- chambered for 2 1/2" shells;
-- "S. Breeden" on the action
-- highly-engraved,
-- magnificent stock
-- SN 10641 found on the forearm, the water-table, the locks, and along the tang behind the trigger guard (the last quite worn).

Diggory received permission to forward photos of the gun and following are additional observatons from the photos:
-- The gun has an under the guard lever, Beringer-style, vice a forward facing lever Lang/Levaucheux style
-- The address on the barrel is “E.M Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London.”
-- The address on the side plates is E.M. Reilly & Co.
-- Both the barrel and water table have Birmingham proof marks from 1855-1868.
-- The actions has the name S. Breeden, no doubt Samuel Breeden, Birmingham action and gun furniture maker.

Here are the contradictions observed:
1) The SN should date to May 1858. However, the company did not rename itself “E.M. Reilly & Co.” until at the earliest February 1859.
2). The engraving on the barrel and gun is period correct and looks to have been done at the time the EM Reilly name was engraved.
3) The serial numbers appear to have been added when the gun was built, not altered later.
4) The Barrels are proofed in Birmingham, not the usual Reilly practice
5) The action is from a Birmingham action maker, also not normal for Reilly although he did contract actions from others and listed this in advertisements.
6) Samuel Breeden was listed in the 1861 census as “Breech Loading action manufacturer and master employing 8 men” in Birmingham. It is not known when Breeden or others in Birmingham began making breech loading actions but it is somehow doubtful that this occurred as early as spring 1858. I’ll repeat the biograph of Breeden below posted on Stephen Nash’s “Pin Fire Game Gun” line.

Conclusion: The only way that I can reconcile all this – the dichotomy between address, name, SN, date, and the gun particulars remains in the original conclusion:
1) The gun was originally ordered as a muzzle order; The buyer put a hold on the order; the number remained on the books; the buyer later changed the order to breech loader. Reilly just put his name address and SN’s on an outsourced gun to speed the process: or
2) An outsourced breech-loading pin-fire gun was sitting around for awhile in semi-completed form; a guy needed a gun in a hurry; so Reilly engraved his name on the rib and side plates;

Because of this I’m not ready to include 10641 in the list of extant pre-1860 Reilly pin-fires. However, again If that action were indeed made in Birmingham in May 1858, it's earlier than common understanding of the beginning of the manufacture of center-break guns in Birmingham and would itself be a historical revelation. Elliott of Birmingham, who apparently went into business in 1859 did enter a breech loader in the 1859 “The Field” trials and later went on to patent a system of locking the barrels to the action in 1863. So at least one gun maker in Birmingham was experimenting with the concept by 1859.

This gun and this topic were discussed in Stephen Nash’s “Pin Fire Game Gun” line. Steve came to the following conclusions:
https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=580176&page=26

I believe the first pinfires by Lang, Reilly and Blanch were made in London, as much as any gun was made in London at the time. The locks would have been sourced from the Black Country, barrel tubes from Birmingham or other local forges, or imported from Belgium, actioned in London, proofed in London, and finished by the aforementioned London firms, and possibly others.

It would not have taken long for Birmingham to start developing its own actioning skills, and perhaps the Field trials marked the point when the pinfire became a viable direction for the industry to take. On the basis there were so few pinfire game guns in circulation prior to the trials, maybe 1859 is the point from which the Birmingham trade started to take notice. It would have had to coincide with an increased demand for the guns from the sporting public, a demand that was being promoted first and foremost by the key London makers.

Would welcome some further research into the topic. When did Birmingham get into making breech loading game guns or actions?


= = = = = = = = = = = = Sanuel Breeden = = = = = = = = = = = = = :

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=577222#Post577222
Here is info on the above Samuel Breeden, alt. spelling Breedon - from a few hours of research - internet is a great thing:

Born in 4 May 1813. Saltey Washwood, Aston area of Birmingham, Warwickshire where lived his whole life. Believe his Father was William Breeden and Mother Mary Breeden
-- 17 Aug 1834 - Married Charlotte Lynol
-- 1849 listed in Birmingham Directory in Saltey Washwood as a “Gun Furniture Manufactuer”
-- 1851 Census: born in Shifnal, Shropshire, England, Saltley Washwood. Married to Charlottte. Son William, Daughter Charlotte, Emma. Occupation listed as “gun furniture maker; trigger maker.”

-- 1853 notice that Samuel Breedon of Washwood Heath, “gun furniture and revolving pistol maker” took on an apprentice named Thomas Spencer (the younger) of Washwood Heath.

-- 1855 listed in Birmingham Directory in Saltey Washwood as a “pistol and rifle sight maker”
-- 1861 Census. Living in Saltey Washwood area. Wife Charlotte. 3 daughters Emma, Charlotte, Luisa. Occupation listed as “Breech Loading action manufacturer and master employing 8 men”

-- 1862 listed in Birmingham directory as a “Gun Furniture maker” located at Washwood heath

-- 1862 listed in Birmingham directory as living on Washwood heath
-- 1862 listed in Slater’s Royal National Commercial Directory under “Gun, Rifle and Pistol Makers” as “Breech loading” located on Washwood heath.
-- 2 July 1865 Samuel Breeden died. William Hill of Birchfield (gun maker) and John Dennison of Birmingham (Confectioner) were executers of the will. His effects were worth under £ 100. He was buried on 9 Jul 1865.

A couple of other things to possibly consider.

Rib engraving does not match the receiver engraving at the breech face in fit and style.

Lock engraving is different style than receiver engraving.

Does rib scroll somewhat match the lock scroll ?

Were barrels reproofed from 14 ga. to 13 ga. at the time of conversion. I'd think this was a normal thing. ?

From the photos, I don't see a serial number on the receiver.

Questions ? Are the barrels and locks from a different source than the receiver ?

Thanks Daryl and that's why I've been puzzled by this gun. Those are the only photos forwarded to me and there are clearly questions about the description. For instance the appraiser told Diggory that the SN was stamped on tang, water table, barrels and fore-end, all standard for Reilly but the only photo is of the number on the barrel. The appraiser initially said it was Lefaucheux forward facing U-L.

I was wondering if this might have been a muzzle loader converted in Birmingham to a breech loader. . .but still there's the problem of the Name related to the SN and the commonality of the SN's. Perhaps the rib was relaid on conversion and the new address added at that time? But that doesn't explain the "EM Reilly & Co." on the side plates.

Perhaps it's just best to say this might be a mystery gun and not look too deeply for historical significance.

A Joseph Charles Reilly percussion SxS barrel is for sale at Holts SN allegedly being 9089. The following request for clarification has been sent to Holt's which is self explanatory. Holt's has not been very responsive lately but these are low budget items probably not worth the research time:

Nick, the percussion barrel by Joseph Charles Reilly allegedly has a SN of 9089. Is this correct? Might it be 8089? JC had his own numbering series from about 1845 until he retired in 1857, These numbers began around 7000. . .the last one known being 8186. If the number is indeed 9089, it would date to 1851 and would actually be part of the main-line SN series. if 8089 it would be part of the JC 7000 series and would date to 1856. Could a better picture of SN and proof marks be obtained? Thanks for helping history.

The ad does not say whether these are rifle or shotgun barrels. 28" barrels could be either though Reilly almost always used 30" barrels for his shotguns of this bore. They could be a shotgun cut down by 2" but they look pretty "hefty". (Admittedly a 14 bore rifle - about 70 caliber - would be more than "hefty": Yet .70 caliber rifles from this period were not rare. Hawken and the British Brunswick come immediately to mind and smooth bore muskets including the Brown Bess were .75 caliber).

https://www.holtsauctioneers.com/as...++2107+&refno=++232619&saletype=