doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Balance at hingepin question

Gentlemen,

I read this forum virtually every day. I enjoy shotguns very much especially doubles and the faithful Winchester Model 12, 42 and Browning A-5. I cannot count the thousands of rounds fired at clays and live birds that have been spent by my hand during my short lifetime of 55 years, although, that could be a result of my poor upbringing and lack of education.

One thing continues to perplex me about this sport that we all love. Perhaps this has been covered before, and if so, please forgive me. Why is the balance point of a double so important at the hingepin, when the hinge pin varies in it's location so much from model to model, maker to maker. It is different in relationship to the breechface, trigger, and butt of the stock. It would seem to me to be irrelevent. After all the discussions that have taken place since the utilization of the hinge pin on double guns, I would have thought by now, we, as a group, that critique everything we fondle and shoot, would have come up with some better method of describing technically rather than by metes and bounds, a quality that so many find to be so critical to our success in wingshooting. Bear in mind, I am not offering an answer! But, am still pondering the question as to the hingepin's importance.

Respectfully,
Hairy

The most important consideration, in gun balance, is that the most weight be "between" the hands.It has sort of evolved that just ahead of the pin is where the gun should balance.
I think it boils down to just what feels comfortable and this point makes the gun do that.
Stand by for an academic comment on the physics of this and pay very close attention (:}).
Best,
John

Hairy, for me the preferred balance point of a heavy, long barrelled gun is in front of the hinge pin while on a short barreled gun it is at the hinge pin. I would guess that this is an opinion question rather than established fact. Peter

What John said!
Yes, there are more precise and scientific ways of doing it, but the hingepin is an easily identified point of reference which is probably generally nearest the actual correct balance point.
We may await Rocketman's contribution; he has been empirically measuring this stuff.
RG

I'm inclined to go along with hairy on this. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that if you take for instance a box lock with a short bar, as many of them have, having the same apparent balance as a side-lock with a long bar, also common, the balance point is "NOT" going to be at the same place in relation to the hinge pin.
The hinge pin's function is as a fulcrum for the bbls to pivot upon when opening & closing the gun & has little revelence to point of balance, just "Coincidently" happens to be "Nearby".

I've seen some of the local cognoscenti speak of balance point measured from the trigger. Makes a ton of sense to me.

The "how and what" of shotgun dynamics is irresistable. My brother's a real engineer (as apposed to a sanitary or systems engineer )and we BS'ed late one night about how to non-destructively measure sectional weights of guns - looking for the weight distribution that makes a sweet swinging gun. Something that could be lined up next to Rocketman's inertia measuring machine at the table. He thought the only way to do would be a liquid displacement in a very big graduated cylinder. We couldn't come up with a liquid that would be acceptable to gunmen. Scotch would foul up the oil finishes.

The point of reference used to tell the stocker where to balance the gun is the standing breech.

Hang a loop of cord from a hook and suspend the gun. When the gun is steady, measure from the cord to the standing breech.

The balance point for any particular gun depends upon the intended use and the desire of the shooter.
danc

It strikes me rather odd that a balnce point is used as a reference, when there is no fulcrum. The gun is suspended by two points and rests upon another. It would seem that a gun could balance on the hingepin and weight in at 65 pounds and be virtually useless in the field. Would not weight distribution or a ratio thereof at the points the gun is held when in a shooting posture better describe what we want in what has been called balance? And, would that not change from shooter to shooter of the same gun depending upon their own personal shooting style?

Hairy

Of course. I once had the displeasure of being made to shoot a Beretta 391 Sport ("Just try it out!") that had a barrel weight AND a stock weight added. Go figure... the guy buys a lightweight gun and then proceeds to make it into a heavy gun by adding weight, but of course the weight he added is in the ends.

It wouldn't move. Remember playing with a gyroscope toy? Same feel. Rigidity in space, they call it...

What you post is true. That is the reason that I, and others, think that the weight of the gun must be balanced between the hands.
It really does not matter the weight of the gun if that is the case.
I suppose we have to agree on what balance means. I don't think it is very different with various shooters but is greatly different in what these different men perceive as a good feeling gun. A wand may be a 2x4 to different men. Gun fit is the key word here.
It seems to me that if a gun fits the shooter well and he feels that he has the control of it, the weight will be between his hands and it will simply be a natural thing to swing it and shoot well.
It is probably a coincidence that the balance point is near the pin.
Just thoughts.:}
Best,
John