doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Scarcity of A & N Small Bore Guns

I think the thing to do would be inquire with Purdey about the possibility of their having made guns under the A&N name. Some of the notations on those sheets, as Chicago noted, are fairly cryptic. Wonder if it could be a sidelock built by someone else for A&N on a Purdey patent action?

I think Larry may be correct about action. These journal pages have 17 columns of entry and none are terribly definitive. The actual description of the gun reads "1 W&R 4th S.E. extra 16/28 Steel to match Purdey Gun (2 gold ovals)." There is a notation column that reads "16 Bore 2-28 bore, GBP 30, Hless EJECTOR Plain Fences to Purdey Gun, P/extra best stock. There is additional notation that is hard to make out but does mention 14 10oz. There is also a column for Finished. Most read W&S and some read either Osb or Ozb. The serial numbers are sequential and the aforementioned gun has a A&N serial number. The Barrel or Maker's No. column generally are not. The barrels seem to generally be in the 66xxx or 45xxx range.

I am not trying to represent this was a Purdey gun, I just thought it interesting that Purdey was referenced in description column and notation column. It was pure speculation on my part that the British Officer Corps in 1904 might have been able to order a Purdey gun from their CSL.

Someone mentioned contacting Purdey to ask and if someone wants a definitive answer that is probably a good idea. It was mainly an item of interest to me.

As I recall, W&R is the typical Webley Screw Grip sidelock, the A&W is the typical Webley Screw Grip boxlock, and the W&S is the typical A&D type action without the Screw Grip feature. All these guns were available in original quality grades from very plain (but always servicable) to very fine (not best, but fine guns). 4th grade is middle of the pack, which makes in no sloutch at all.

Sounds to me like someone had a A&N order out a 4th quality W&R with some extras to match a currently owned Purdey. I'm not sure what kind of a pair that would be. However, I'd guess they got passed off as a pair of Purdeys in the grouse butts.

I'll check on the A&N page for a A&W grade 2 from the late 1890's in my posession in a couple of days.

I agree with Rocketman. W&R, unless my memory is playing tricks, is the Webley & Rogers action. Sounds to me also as if someone tried to do a composed pair with a Purdey and a Purdey look-alike.

Rocketman:
The W&R is in the description column and the W&S is in the Finished column. The concept of matching a Purdey Gun seems to have some merit, although this gun was ordered with two sets of barrels a 16 and 28 bore. My general impression of the times was a pair of 12's would have been the norm.

Maybe you can help me decipher my gun's description. 1 R 7th B.T.B. Gun Steel 28" N.P. I have the 28" barrels and Nitro Proof figured out. Mine is a 16 bore sidelock non-ejector gun and obviously with nitro proofed 28" steel barrels. I would say it has somewhat over 50% engraving and fairly plain wood.

Regarding the Purdey issue, you all have perked my interest. I have fired off an e-mail to them and we will see if they respond. If they do I will let you know.

Another description by mine is 1 R 7th B.T.B. S.E. Steel N.P. I gather the S.E. is for Sidelock Ejector.

Thanks to all for assistance.

W&S in the finished column probably refers to Webley nd Scott as the source of the finished gun.

I'll have to look at some codes to see if I can figure out any more. Be back in a few days.

Pairs of 16 bores are not uncommon for ladies and young shooters. This is also likely the explaination for the 28 bore barrels - a smallish person's gun.

Small bore English guns, regardless of manufacturer, have always been a scarce commodity. Eley [IMI] Reported cartridge [Shell] sales in 1980 as follows:
12.G-87% 16.G- 3.2% 20.G -3.2% 28.G-0.5% .410-6.0%
These cartridge sales are I believe a good indication as to the mix of guns produced by English makers.

Rocketman:
Thanks for the offer to help on my gun.

In light of your comment on made to match a Purdey I again looked at the description. I think that is certainly the answer. The way it is written out you could read it as either "Steel to match" or "Purdey Gun to match". Initially I thought the former.

Mike

The best place to start with the A&N journals is the "finished" column. That's who built the gun. Knowing who built it will help you make more sense of the description. "W&S" is Webley & Scott, so it's going to be a Webley & Scott model. "W&R 4th S. E." refers to the trade maker's model, not Army & Navy's, and means it's Webley's W&R Model (Webley & Rogers) 4th grade sidelock ejector. If you look farther to the left, you'll also find a column for "barrel number" (IIRC) which is the maker's serial number, as opposed to A&N's. Webley did number the guns they built for the trade. You should find this number on the barrels, usually somewhere around or on the fore-end loop. On double rifles, this was on the left side of the fore-end loop itself after 1906, and on the key rib prior to that. I research the Webley built double rifles, but have done little on the shotguns, so I can't remember exactly where it will be on those, but it's always there.

"Osb" in the "Finished by" column refers to Charles Osborne, who also built shotguns and double rifles for Army & Navy.

Afraid my page won't help a lot with further decyphering. All the guns on my page are A&D 12ga ejectors, marked either "Southgate" or "crossbolt". (Mine are crossbolt guns.) And all but two were finished by Webley & Scott. The other two carry an abbreviation that appears to be "Sdrs". My guns do indeed have the W&S maker's number on the barrels (forend loop), as indicated on the A&N record sheet. Interestingly, however, only about half the W&S guns on the page show anything in the "Barrel or Maker's No." category.