doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Scarcity of A & N Small Bore Guns

Larry:

If they were finished by W&S, I think the number is probably absent because they just filed to record it.

"Sdrs" would, I believe, refer to Saunders.

A&W is a reference to 'Anson & Webley' ansd was used in teh trade to demote A&D boxlocks with intercepting safeties and with the Webley & Brain screw grip of 1882. These were made by Webley for the trade, including Army & Navy and William Evans. They can be very well finished and engraved.The sidelock generally used at the time was referred to as the 'A&R' for Anson & Rodgers'.

I noted in a Manton & Co catalogue of 1926 - 1927 that they were offering double rifles by Purdey. No reason Army & Nav could not do likewise. As to trade trms - I don't know.

Nitro:
Well, after looking at these journal entries yet again I find the W&R mentioned in the notations to the left of the Guard No column. It appears to read 2 - 16 Bore W&R 7th Steel N.P. L.C. Non Ejectors GPB 16.10 MA/M/R W of 2989 (Maybe 298g). I understand all of this but the MA/MR/R - I think.

Still curious about the R. B.T.B. 7th Gun entered in the description column.

15 of the 24 guns were finished by W&S, and all have an entry in the "Barrel or Maker's No" column. On my gun this # can by found on the bottom of the barrels.

Of interest all of the A&D 20's and 28's were finished by Osbourne.

Roy:
I never thought about shell sales to give a flavor for the number of small bores. I knew there were relatively few of them made.

Thanks for all the responses, this has been educational.

Here is the response from Purdey:

Dear Mr Dunn,
I have not see in our records any link
between Purdey's & Army & Navy csl not even stock guns being sold to them.
I am not aware of licences for other gunmakers being sold to make the self
opening action. I believe the first gunmaker to use this action other than
Purdey's was Henry Atkin in 1907 long after the patent had run out.
I hope this information is useful.
Yours sincerely

David Maynard

Dig:

I think you were perhaps speaking a little off the cuff.

A & W = A for the Anson & Deeley boxlock patent; and W for the Webley & Brain Screw-Grip Top Fastener patent. The top grades had intercepting sears, but the lower grades did not. They weren't standard on the A & W.

The sidelock was the W & R, not the A & R. It stood for Webley & Rogers.

Yes- W&R is correct for the sidelock - my typo there. That'll teach me to try and write and eat sushi at the same time!

Note there were two gunmakers both called Rodgers involved in the patent.

Also correct that not all screw grip guns have intercepting sears but the better ones sold by Army & Navy and William Evans did.

Good job someone is paying attention!

I see MI/MA/R, ME/MA/R, and similar notations in mine, but it's in the "Cost" column. My understanding is that this is a "cost/make profit" code. I think I remember reading somewhere that U of G can decipher this. I've never paid any attention to it.



I'm sure there's an obvious explanation, but I don't have a clue. Sorry.



If you look in the Webley & Scott serial number table in Brown, the date for that number should match the date in the A&N record. That number is a way of dating what are clearly identifiable W & S models retailed by makers that no records survive for.

400, on my A&N page, 21 guns are listed as finished by W&S. 12 of them have a barrel number recorded; the rest do not.

Larry:

I have a number of pages from the journals. In mine, all those from W & S have barrel numbers recorded. Again, I think in this case that they simply failed to record them, as opposed to the Webley numbers not being on the guns.

To all:
Thanks again for education. I think I will fire off an e-mail to U of G to see if they can decipher the R.T.B. item. I believe Rocketman was also going to look at his double secret code book and maybe that will reveal something.

Mike