doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Scarcity of A & N Small Bore Guns

Recently I received a page from the journal of Army & Navy for my 16 ga. The page has a total of 24 guns on it and reveals how few small bore guns were sold, at least in the early 1900's. It took A&N a little over 3 1/2 years to sell these 24 guns. Of the 24 guns 9 were 16 ga, 10 were 20 ga and 5 were 28 ga. Less than 8 guns a year.

If some one has a 12 ga page from Army & Navy I would be interested in how long it took them to sell a similar number of the larger bore guns. The other book may cover all large bore guns, I really don't know.

The gun of the times was the 12bore.
Just the thing for driven grouse, flighted mallards and pigeons.

Lowell:
I believe that is still true today on the other side of the pond. I am trying to get my arms around the percentage of guns that were small bore.

Thanks,

Mike

Dear Mr Brown

Thank you for your enquiry. According to the Army & Navy records that we hold, your gun was originally purchased by Mr J. Capping in 1913 for £07.07.00

A copy of the full entry in the sales registers costs £23.50. Please complete the attached forms and mail them back to us if you wish to use this service.

Please ask for a copy of the entry for gun number 58756 in volume reference HF6/8/13 and quote order reference number 06/2215/3776

I hope this information is of use to you.

Yours sincerely
William Bill
archive assistant

The Duty Archivist
Glasgow University Archive Services
13 Thurso Street, Glasgow G11 6PE, U.K.
Tel: +44 (0) 141-330-5515
Fax: +44 (0) 141-330-2640
E-mail: dutyarch@archives.gla.ac.uk
URL: http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk
--

Chicago, the page I have from the A&N records (March 32 to May 34) contains 23 12 bores. However, I gather from an entry at the top of the page that the guns were categorized not only by bore, but also by type. The entry at the top of the page reads "Anson Hammerless Ejector Guns"--which I would take to mean that sidelocks, hammerguns, and nonejector guns are all listed elsewhere. So those 23 12 bores would not have been all the 12's sold by A&N over that 26 month period, even though I'd guess sales might have been a bit sluggish during those Depression years.

L. Brown:
That's interesting, the Small Bore Hammerless page I have (Nov. 02 to June 06) seems to cover all types of actions. I am not quite sure how to decipher the descriptions. They talk about 1 A&W....., 1 A&D H'less. I gather the latter is a Anson & Deeley Hammerless and not sure about former. My 16 is a sidelock.

Of most interest is a two barrel 16/28 set and according to a note in the description, apparently a Purdey. I gather you could order a Purdey from the CSL, but it is assigned an A&N serial number and barrel numbers.

The Purdey would be bought from the co-op? It would be a Purdey except for the A&N serial and barrel numbers? Any notions of the arrangement? Purdey using A&N as a distributer? A better deal for the cooperators?

The Purdey/A&N rumour surfaces again!
More than once I've heard some reasonably well-schooled people speculate that a few A&N guns were possibly trade-built by Purdey; they've always been poo-pooed, but this may be concrete primary source evidence for such a legend.
RG

Purdey has always been forth coming with info on their guns - thats why this is a urban legend. I'm sure some overly excited chap has dialed them up on this very subject.
So, the ol'matey's set of guns, were Purdeys eh?
Oh dear, mother coulda had that operation!

....and why should this be surprising? Those laddies were just getting over using 8br and 10br breech-loading "SMOKE PIPES". You know, not for Nitro thingys.

I think the thing to do would be inquire with Purdey about the possibility of their having made guns under the A&N name. Some of the notations on those sheets, as Chicago noted, are fairly cryptic. Wonder if it could be a sidelock built by someone else for A&N on a Purdey patent action?

I think Larry may be correct about action. These journal pages have 17 columns of entry and none are terribly definitive. The actual description of the gun reads "1 W&R 4th S.E. extra 16/28 Steel to match Purdey Gun (2 gold ovals)." There is a notation column that reads "16 Bore 2-28 bore, GBP 30, Hless EJECTOR Plain Fences to Purdey Gun, P/extra best stock. There is additional notation that is hard to make out but does mention 14 10oz. There is also a column for Finished. Most read W&S and some read either Osb or Ozb. The serial numbers are sequential and the aforementioned gun has a A&N serial number. The Barrel or Maker's No. column generally are not. The barrels seem to generally be in the 66xxx or 45xxx range.

I am not trying to represent this was a Purdey gun, I just thought it interesting that Purdey was referenced in description column and notation column. It was pure speculation on my part that the British Officer Corps in 1904 might have been able to order a Purdey gun from their CSL.

Someone mentioned contacting Purdey to ask and if someone wants a definitive answer that is probably a good idea. It was mainly an item of interest to me.

As I recall, W&R is the typical Webley Screw Grip sidelock, the A&W is the typical Webley Screw Grip boxlock, and the W&S is the typical A&D type action without the Screw Grip feature. All these guns were available in original quality grades from very plain (but always servicable) to very fine (not best, but fine guns). 4th grade is middle of the pack, which makes in no sloutch at all.

Sounds to me like someone had a A&N order out a 4th quality W&R with some extras to match a currently owned Purdey. I'm not sure what kind of a pair that would be. However, I'd guess they got passed off as a pair of Purdeys in the grouse butts.

I'll check on the A&N page for a A&W grade 2 from the late 1890's in my posession in a couple of days.

I agree with Rocketman. W&R, unless my memory is playing tricks, is the Webley & Rogers action. Sounds to me also as if someone tried to do a composed pair with a Purdey and a Purdey look-alike.

Rocketman:
The W&R is in the description column and the W&S is in the Finished column. The concept of matching a Purdey Gun seems to have some merit, although this gun was ordered with two sets of barrels a 16 and 28 bore. My general impression of the times was a pair of 12's would have been the norm.

Maybe you can help me decipher my gun's description. 1 R 7th B.T.B. Gun Steel 28" N.P. I have the 28" barrels and Nitro Proof figured out. Mine is a 16 bore sidelock non-ejector gun and obviously with nitro proofed 28" steel barrels. I would say it has somewhat over 50% engraving and fairly plain wood.

Regarding the Purdey issue, you all have perked my interest. I have fired off an e-mail to them and we will see if they respond. If they do I will let you know.

Another description by mine is 1 R 7th B.T.B. S.E. Steel N.P. I gather the S.E. is for Sidelock Ejector.

Thanks to all for assistance.

W&S in the finished column probably refers to Webley nd Scott as the source of the finished gun.

I'll have to look at some codes to see if I can figure out any more. Be back in a few days.

Pairs of 16 bores are not uncommon for ladies and young shooters. This is also likely the explaination for the 28 bore barrels - a smallish person's gun.

Small bore English guns, regardless of manufacturer, have always been a scarce commodity. Eley [IMI] Reported cartridge [Shell] sales in 1980 as follows:
12.G-87% 16.G- 3.2% 20.G -3.2% 28.G-0.5% .410-6.0%
These cartridge sales are I believe a good indication as to the mix of guns produced by English makers.

Rocketman:
Thanks for the offer to help on my gun.

In light of your comment on made to match a Purdey I again looked at the description. I think that is certainly the answer. The way it is written out you could read it as either "Steel to match" or "Purdey Gun to match". Initially I thought the former.

Mike

The best place to start with the A&N journals is the "finished" column. That's who built the gun. Knowing who built it will help you make more sense of the description. "W&S" is Webley & Scott, so it's going to be a Webley & Scott model. "W&R 4th S. E." refers to the trade maker's model, not Army & Navy's, and means it's Webley's W&R Model (Webley & Rogers) 4th grade sidelock ejector. If you look farther to the left, you'll also find a column for "barrel number" (IIRC) which is the maker's serial number, as opposed to A&N's. Webley did number the guns they built for the trade. You should find this number on the barrels, usually somewhere around or on the fore-end loop. On double rifles, this was on the left side of the fore-end loop itself after 1906, and on the key rib prior to that. I research the Webley built double rifles, but have done little on the shotguns, so I can't remember exactly where it will be on those, but it's always there.

"Osb" in the "Finished by" column refers to Charles Osborne, who also built shotguns and double rifles for Army & Navy.

Afraid my page won't help a lot with further decyphering. All the guns on my page are A&D 12ga ejectors, marked either "Southgate" or "crossbolt". (Mine are crossbolt guns.) And all but two were finished by Webley & Scott. The other two carry an abbreviation that appears to be "Sdrs". My guns do indeed have the W&S maker's number on the barrels (forend loop), as indicated on the A&N record sheet. Interestingly, however, only about half the W&S guns on the page show anything in the "Barrel or Maker's No." category.

Larry:

If they were finished by W&S, I think the number is probably absent because they just filed to record it.

"Sdrs" would, I believe, refer to Saunders.

A&W is a reference to 'Anson & Webley' ansd was used in teh trade to demote A&D boxlocks with intercepting safeties and with the Webley & Brain screw grip of 1882. These were made by Webley for the trade, including Army & Navy and William Evans. They can be very well finished and engraved.The sidelock generally used at the time was referred to as the 'A&R' for Anson & Rodgers'.

I noted in a Manton & Co catalogue of 1926 - 1927 that they were offering double rifles by Purdey. No reason Army & Nav could not do likewise. As to trade trms - I don't know.

Nitro:
Well, after looking at these journal entries yet again I find the W&R mentioned in the notations to the left of the Guard No column. It appears to read 2 - 16 Bore W&R 7th Steel N.P. L.C. Non Ejectors GPB 16.10 MA/M/R W of 2989 (Maybe 298g). I understand all of this but the MA/MR/R - I think.

Still curious about the R. B.T.B. 7th Gun entered in the description column.

15 of the 24 guns were finished by W&S, and all have an entry in the "Barrel or Maker's No" column. On my gun this # can by found on the bottom of the barrels.

Of interest all of the A&D 20's and 28's were finished by Osbourne.

Roy:
I never thought about shell sales to give a flavor for the number of small bores. I knew there were relatively few of them made.

Thanks for all the responses, this has been educational.

Here is the response from Purdey:

Dear Mr Dunn,
I have not see in our records any link
between Purdey's & Army & Navy csl not even stock guns being sold to them.
I am not aware of licences for other gunmakers being sold to make the self
opening action. I believe the first gunmaker to use this action other than
Purdey's was Henry Atkin in 1907 long after the patent had run out.
I hope this information is useful.
Yours sincerely

David Maynard

Dig:

I think you were perhaps speaking a little off the cuff.

A & W = A for the Anson & Deeley boxlock patent; and W for the Webley & Brain Screw-Grip Top Fastener patent. The top grades had intercepting sears, but the lower grades did not. They weren't standard on the A & W.

The sidelock was the W & R, not the A & R. It stood for Webley & Rogers.

Yes- W&R is correct for the sidelock - my typo there. That'll teach me to try and write and eat sushi at the same time!

Note there were two gunmakers both called Rodgers involved in the patent.

Also correct that not all screw grip guns have intercepting sears but the better ones sold by Army & Navy and William Evans did.

Good job someone is paying attention!

I see MI/MA/R, ME/MA/R, and similar notations in mine, but it's in the "Cost" column. My understanding is that this is a "cost/make profit" code. I think I remember reading somewhere that U of G can decipher this. I've never paid any attention to it.



I'm sure there's an obvious explanation, but I don't have a clue. Sorry.



If you look in the Webley & Scott serial number table in Brown, the date for that number should match the date in the A&N record. That number is a way of dating what are clearly identifiable W & S models retailed by makers that no records survive for.

400, on my A&N page, 21 guns are listed as finished by W&S. 12 of them have a barrel number recorded; the rest do not.

Larry:

I have a number of pages from the journals. In mine, all those from W & S have barrel numbers recorded. Again, I think in this case that they simply failed to record them, as opposed to the Webley numbers not being on the guns.

To all:
Thanks again for education. I think I will fire off an e-mail to U of G to see if they can decipher the R.T.B. item. I believe Rocketman was also going to look at his double secret code book and maybe that will reveal something.

Mike

Off the cuff and I reserve the right to be wrong. "makeprofit" = 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0. "MA/M/R" = 12 pounds/1 Shilling/6 pence and was the wholesale cost of the gun. Could be the price was 16 pound/10 shillings, a profit of around 35%.

I thought I'd resurrect this old thread for a smallbore A&N question rather than start fresh.

I recently arranged to purchase a 16 gauge A&N BLNE with 28" damascus barrels. The serial number is 141XX.

That is about all the information I have at this point. To me, the action looks like a typical W&S. Google isn't turning up much on A&N serial numbers. I emailed the archivist at Glasgow last week, but I haven't heard back.

Do any of you have a guess as to when this gun was made?

According to Brown Vol I, it was made between 1891 and 1899.

Tim

Thank you, Tim.

You will hear from the Glasgow university. They are very good to respond with basic information. And for complete records they will ask for a donation, which is not a bad idea to help support the archives.

Chicago,
Some years ago[Circa 1980] Eley U.K. published records of their cartridge sale over a three year period. These sales figures provide a good indicator as to the % of guns made/in use,by various bore size.
1OG 0.1%
16G 3.2%
20G 3.2%
28G 0.5%
.410 6.0%
12G 87.O5
It can be seen that regardless of maker, with few exceptions, example,Watson a specialist in small bore guns,small bore guns bearing English makers names are few and far between.

Army and Navy guns were for sale to service personnel and their families and as such they would be pretty widely scattered about the globe manning the Empire on which the sun never set. I would suspect that ammunition availability would be a very important consideration with small bore ammo hard to come by in some the farther flung places. That would make the 12 bore guns a more desirable option. Lagopus.....

I also bought records of my A&N BLE but sadly the finished coloumn is blank,also theres another coloumn noted as " Soft. " does anybody knows what does it stand for? In my page there are Some osb , jefferey and w & son.