doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ithaca Flues with side plates

Keith,
I didn’t realize that guns could get a crack in the frame until about the year 2000. My Dad and I would haunt gun shows, and at one of those a guy very generously showed me a cracked Flusie. My Dad didn’t care for doubles, but, I made it a point to see just about every double in a show we went to. This being fly over country, it was mostly low end stuff. I remember being thrilled to handle an engraved 16 gauge model 21 at a weapons collector show.
I’ve handled and counted at least 5 or 6 broken Flues guns since I was shown the first. I suspect, but, can’t prove, that some people play stupid, and try to sell broken guns without fessing up to it, and I have stopped pointing out a broken Flues to guys trying to sell them, because it usually gets unpleasant. I might have seen a low end Flues every other show. But, even then, I remember I saw cracked guns as often as I saw good guns.
We can speculate about how many good guns versus cracked guns there are, or what caused it, but, to me, that isn’t a very comforting argument or discussion to have about a gun to consider owning. There are other ways to own a light gun, if that is what you want.

You have been here long enough to remember the debates with the beaner’ and his “engineering” claims for his favorite brand of double, a design I washed my hands of around the same time I was shown the cracked Flues, and, for the same reasons. Years later, it was refreshing to find an honest gunsmith, in the form of Dewey Vicknair, who wasn’t interested in applying salve to people who owned crummy guns, and taking their money to bandaid the cancer on those guns. Dewey and I came to the exact same conclusions from totally different directions.

I wasn’t wrong in dismissing a few designs, out of hand. I work too hard for my time in the field to be troubled with substandard equipment. My experience has been if there is a bad one out there, it is trying to find me.

Best,
Ted

I appreciate your input Ted. It would be interesting to know the circumstances behind the relatively few cracked Flues guns you have seen personally. My actual experience is far different. I wish I had the admission money alone for all of the Gun Shows I have attended over the past 30 years or so. And I have often wondered how many screaming deals I missed on rifles and handguns, because I became very focused on finding and looking at every side-by-side double, along with associated parts. barrels, stocks, etc. In all that time, and all those miles, I still have not personally seen even one Flues with a cracked frame, other than a couple repeatedly pictured here. I mentioned the four 20 ga. Flues guns I own, and two are parts guns with blown barrels. I also own a 12 and a 16 ga. Flues, and none of those has a cracked frame.

Just for kicks, I Googled "Ithaca Flues cracked frame" and seriously expected to see a fair number of actual instances of cracked Flues. I urge others to do this for themselves. I have little doubt that the Preacher has been frantically searching for a rash of cracked Flues in order to prove me wrong. There were a couple hits for older posts right here on DoubleGunShop.com, along with several others from various other firearms forums. A quick read of those results showed mention of only a couple actual broken Flues frames over the 15-20 years. However, there were numerous queries from guys who had heard about all of the horror stories, yet also had not seen the problem with their own Flues guns. There was mention of the research done by Greg Tag, but no actual report or numbers. And all of the anecdotal evidence I saw pointed to guns that cracked simply because they were fired with extremely heavy and inappropriate loads. Of course, there was mention of guys who foolishly used data for black or bulk smokeless powders to concoct loads with newer and much more potent nitro powders. When you push a gun, car, airplane, or any other machine well past it's engineering design limits, some weaker element is likely to yield or break. Here's a representative sample of a couple posts from DuckHuntingChat.com --- https://www.duckhuntingchat.com/threads/ithaca-16-ga-double.166439/

QUOTE-- McDerry said:
"Also consider looking into some lower pressure rounds for the recievers sake. The flues is netorious for cracking the frames. RSI makes some low pressure soft non toxic loads for use in those old doubles."

Yep. Part of what made the Flues such a nice handling shotgun was that very petit frame. When compared to most of today doubles, the frame of a Flues 12 is more like a modern 20. I have always heard about the Flues tendency to crack frames but I've never conversed with anyone that had actually seen a cracked Flues frame and it seems that the Flues started to be known for cracking frames around the time that the big Olin/Winchester paper hulled 3" loads came out. Chamber length wasnt stamped on most Ithaca doubles so I tend to believe that the frames were being broke by the huge pressure spikes caused by the shot charge being crammed through the mouth of a thick paper hull that was crammed into a much to short chamber. But just to be safe I feed my Flues hevi shot classic doubles.

Mention was also made concerning a "photo that seems to float around on Double Gun Shop bbs". Care to make a wild guess where that came from???

So it appears that somewhere along the line, the Flues got a bad reputation as being "netorious" (sic) for frame cracking, even though the scant evidence concerning the issue points to guns that were abused in some manner. I'm not especially fond of Flues guns. I like my Syracuse Lefevers much more, even though they have their weak points as well. I also still have several L.C. Smiths, even though I am well aware of their weak points too. Dewey Vicknair states that the cause of frame cracking in Fox guns is allowing the barrels to simply fall open, and the hammers stopping abruptly against the inside of the action flat places undue stress on the frame along the barrel hook opening. This act will not endanger small children or innocent bystanders though. If I ever found a great deal on a nice Tobin, I'd likely buy it, and then PM you to ask what I should feed it. What concerns me way more than cracked frames or weak stock heads is the possibility of falling while hunting, and having an accidental discharge while using a gun that was designed without intercepting sears.

There was a thread in the Custom Rifle forum here concerning a low-number Springfield that blew up a couple years back. There was a lot of hand-wringing and criticism of the rifle. There were scary pictures of a shattered gun, and shattered shooting glasses that saved the owners' eyesight. Blame was not only placed on the gun, but also on the time-proven handload that was used when it blew up.

As it turns out, the remains of that Springfield were sold, and the buyer had metallurgical testing done on the fractured action, and on another low number Springfield, for comparison. Long story short, the conclusion reached by the metallurgists (who were gun guys) was that the gun blew up due to a single extreme pressure event. I have a PDF copy of that metallurgical report, and can email it to you if you'd like to read it. Very interesting stuff! Unfortunately, the actual probable cause was never posted here to counter the hysteria in the earlier Thread. So naturally, people who read that original account are going to have an extreme negative bias toward the guns, when the real problem was almost certainly shooter error. And that's how a lot of this crap gets started.

"I have little doubt that the Preacher has been frantically searching for a rash of cracked Flues in order to prove me wrong."

Sorry William, but I have no emotional investment nor intellectual interest in cracked frame Flues, or your self-absorption and paranoia. I'm not stalking you.

I did once buy a nicely restocked with a BTFE and beautiful wood 10g Flues at a gun show for fun, only to find someone had hogged the chambers out to 3 1/2". This was long ago and before I had a wall thickness gauge, but I had read enough to know not to use the gun as it was, and didn't want to invest in custom full length 12g tubes. I sold it with full disclosure to a guy who wanted the stock. Interesting, no cracked frame and the gun was tight and on-face.

BTW: could you please address me by my name, and leave my calling and ministry out of it? Thank you.

Preacher, I didn't make that statement based upon any paranoia or self absorption problems. I said it based upon your past history, and the many times that you have responded to my posts with a bunch of copy-and-paste links in a typical frantic attempt to make me look bad or prove me wrong. There are many examples in the archives, and you've done that right within this very thread. And your serial responses demonstrate that you do indeed have an "emotional investment" and "intellectual interest in cracked frame Flues", accompanied by your usual rude insults and false accusations. Just the sort of behavior that makes your claims to be a holy man a sad joke.

I'd think you'd at least be appreciative of finally knowing the probable cause of frame cracking in Fox Sterlingworths. I have little doubt you'll repeat Dewey Vicknair's analysis the next dozen times you post that Fox photo. I just hope you'll give him proper attribution.

I know Dave Weber gets tired of this back and forth bickering, but in all fairness, I should be permitted to respond to your dishonest attempts to hurl insults and denigrate my mental state. But then again, maybe Dave will feel you are too fragile to handle the truth, and utilize censorship to save you again.