doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com question regarding proofs

watching this gun on gb......https://www.gunbroker.com/Item/978501975

i'm trying to puzzle out the proof marks on this one....j. macnaughton marked frame, bearing his serial #905, and a & d patent use # 4641....and wearing a barrel set by dickson & son (photos show no serial #). the barrel set has two sets of proofs; first was done under 1925 rules (?),...and second is quite modern (2005?) showing honing from .720 to .732, and extending chambers to 70mm.

the action appears to be a second or third era wesley richards....which should be 1890ish, and has two sets of pikes with lettering that i can't make out. i am guessing that the gun is from that time period, and must have been rebarreled by dickson in 20's - 30's, (maybe still in edinburgh at that time?), thus no reproof markings....and then back to b-ham some time after 2005 with fresh reproofing marks.

am i correct in assuming that the recent "crown over std" mark are the modern equal of the "nitro proof 1 1/8", or later "3 ton per square inch"?

best regards,
tom

You have the marks deciphered



The original bore was 13/1 = .719 - .728"
Reproved after lengthening the chambers and honing to 18.6 = .732". The reproof date code is in the upper right, but I can't read it.

As to service pressure, it's complicated
The CIP standard for 12g 50mm, 65mm, and 70mm “Standard Proof” lead or steel is 850 BAR (Crown over STD)
Maximum Average (SERVICE) Pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi;
Maximum Statistical Individual Pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi

The British 70mm chamber standard was to a service pressure of 3 1/4 tons/sq. inch or 900 kg per square cm (BAR)
900 BAR is for a “Maximal Average (Service) Pressure” of 780 BAR = 11,313 PSI

I have seen several other guns clearly made on wesley richards actions with other makers names on them. I think that if yo went ot a maker and asked them to make it they would bring in a gun in the white and finish it to your specks. I saw a H&H with the same wesley richards top lever which I am certain was finished by H&H for a customer. It was done to a high standard but that top lever is rather distinctive to say the least.

Pressure is always the big question. In this case, with 2 3/4" chambers (70mm), it is fairly easy. I would shoot any factory or reloaded shells with pressures 10,500 or under. That should get you just about any factory shell. Average service pressure can be exceeded but serves as a good upper limit guide. In my 2 1/2" chambered guns I shoot a lot lower pressures but even they could withstand that limit if needed.

For future "classic double" reloading I just trimmed 5,000 Fiocchi hulls down to 67 mm, which is the longest recommended shell length, recommended for 2 1/2" or 65 mm proofed guns. 67mm load well on my re-loader, with standard wads and full shot and powder loads. Loaded up nine different loads and sent them off for pressure and velocity testing. Out of that I will use three or four as my basic, do everything loads, for shorter chambered guns. Everything loaded should be under 8,000 psi with five running 6,500psi or less and two under 5,000. Assuming they have decent velocity, with consistent performance, this will end a decade long concern of mine about what to shoot in my classic guns. And Fiocchi hulls are readily available and cheap to buy, which makes my loading issues going forwards simple. Regular wads, easy to find hulls, common powders and primers, that I can buy in large numbers, is so much better than trying to find odd wads and powders which always seemed to be out of stock.

Tom: if you get the gun, please let us know the end-of-chamber, forcing cone, 9" and minimum wall thicknesses and location thereof.

kyjon:

i own another such gun, an isaac hollis & son 12 ejector gun that has been sleeved and rechambered to 2 3/4", and was reproofed in b-ham in 1961, with 3 1/4 ton proofs. it is choked cylinder and .020 and is a fine shooter....and an opportunity for a wesley gun at a very modest price. one of our brit regulars here has also described his "market wesley richards" as a wr with someone else's name on the sides.

i am moving toward a "system" of reloads very similar to what you describe....two classes of loads; a 2 3/4" version with a targeted pressure of 8-8,500psi, and a 2 1/2" version with a targeted pressure of 6-6,500psi....both i am hoping to yield in the range of 1,150 fps.

drew:

if i should buy the gun i will try and report the barrel dimensions as you request....i have some plug gauges and bore mics that i can depend upon, but i have some fine motor skill issues, and satisfactory use of my manson's wall gauge is rather iffy...

i have asked the seller for additional information, thus far without a response....they have a total of 8 english guns currently on gb, rather a mismash of guns, all showing obvious degrees of usage. i'm guessing that they all came from the same source, and that the shop may not have a great deal of expertise in this sort of thing....the description language is "standardized" in all the guns.

best regards,
tom

What would be the purpose of the small piece of horn fitted to the front of the trigger guard? I've never seen anything like that before.

Is it horn or rubber in front of the trigger guard?

Either way it seems to be designed to make the gun more comfortable to carry tucked under the crook of the arm resting against the inner part of your forearm.

Note the round cocking dogs typical of early A&D actions.

that makes as much sense as anything i might imagine - like rem40x....i've never seen anything like that before.

and, by the way jon, i would be keen on learning the loads and test results from your 9 loads that are being scrutinized....all such data is useful for those of us who load low pressure for the old ones.

i recently spoke for this gun....https://www.gunbroker.com/item/977276624 i rather like the idea of a classic action mated to a more modern tube set....they're really just shooters, and suit me fine if the price is reasonable.

o'malleybrosfineguns sent me a message sunday evening to say that they were scrambling to answer questions re: auction guns....by that time they had 25+ english sxs guns listed - in various degrees of decent to poor condition - and each with a similar blanket description.

i had requested weight, dac, dah and cast measurements, and message said that would try and get those to me monday.

this morning (tuesday @ 8:30am) i received this message....."drop is 2 1/4" and 73/8" no cast weight is under 7 pounds"

wow...fineguns indeed...

best regards,
tom

Unfortunately it’s just vultures picking a carcass clean. At one point they were some great guns, but this lot today is pretty sour.