doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Just acquired an interesting French double

Well, Larry, Neltir and many others say that VC never filed a patent under the name "Helice" and that his patent under the name "Helicobloc," etc. merely simplified Webley's triple-lock and added a fourth lock. Thus, I don't think Helice was ever actually defined in spite of VC's claim above. So what is a "Helice system". - can it be defined? Is there a common denominator other than the helical closing key all center break shotguns use? What VC did do for sure was popularize the ubiquitous Fench engraving on the Key. Anyway, we can agree to disagree. Here it Neltir's post again roughly translated:

Here is a translation of his post just for the record - the translation is not literal but I've tried to make it in understandable English so it catches the sense of the original.

Bonsoir a tous , je me permet d'intervenir sur ce post que j'ai parcouru avec beaucoup d'attention et de ....rires parfois !

Good morning everybody. Permit me to intrude in this thread that I have followed with great interest and with�.uproarious laughter

Deja je vais me permettre de dire rendons a H�lice ce qui est a lui !!!

Please permit me to relate what exactly is a Helice

En effet ,j'ai lu que Verney Carron �tait l'inventeur du fusil H�lice ::: que le fusil h�lice �tait une marque de fusils lisses :::: que h�lice �tait ��

I have read that Verney Carron was the inventor of the �Helice gun,� that Helice was a maker of long arms�.that Helice was...whatever�.

Et bien d�ja je vais vous dire une chose , c'est que H�lice est un syst�me de fermeture d'une arme basculante . Ensuite que les premieres fermetures des armes a bascules �taient r�alis�es au moyen d'un verrou pivotant a h�lice ...d'ou le fameux h�lice qui vous fait raconter tout et n'importe quoi !!!Excusez moi si j' y vais un peu fort,mais je pense que si Casimir Lefaucheux lisait ce post il deviendrait ....fou de rage !!! qui n'a jamais vu son grand p�re ou son voisin articuler le fameux levier sous la longuesse du vieux fusil a broche ����:::le levier qui commandait le verrou "HELICE " ,ce fameux h�lice !!!

Well I am going to tell you all a few things; first that Helice is a closing system for a center-break long arm. The first closing system for center-break long arms was a lock pivoting on a helix screw; That�s the famous Helice which you all have been saying whatever about. Excuse me if I am speaking a little strongly, but I think that if Casimir Lefaucheux were reading these posts he would become crazy with rage. Who has not seen one�s Grandfather or one�s neighbor manipulate the famous lever under the fore-stock of an old pin-fire rifle? The lever which controlled the �HELICE� (helical) lock, that�s the famous helice!!

Ensuite ce fameux syst�me dit "H�lice" grace au progr�s r�alis� sur les Hammerless notament fut transpos� si je puis dire sur le haut du boitier de culasse sous forme d'une clef qu e vous avez tous manipul�s ,ceci a cause de l'adoption de diff�rents verrous horizontaux et verticaux afin de reporter ces verrous plus loinde l'axe de bascule afin d'avoir une plus grande r�sistance a la pression , ceci encore a cause des adoptions de nouvelles poudres plus puissantes .

The famous system called �Helice,� thanks to progress on the �hammerless� system, was moved onto the top of the breech in the form of a key which you have all used. This was because of the adoption of different horizontal and vertical locks in order to move these locks further from the axis of the break in order to achieve a greater resistance to pressure, a need caused by the adoption of new more powerful powders.

Il en reste n�anmoins que le syst�me h�lice restait appliqu� parce que la fameuse clef par son mouvement lat�ral circulaire poussait un m�canisme semblable a l'ancien levier de dessous de longuesse des temps anciens (dits anciens ) et verrouillait le basculement et de l� naquis l'id�e de verrous multiples possibles sur divers points afin de renforcer la r�sistance au d�part du coup de feu :

The helices (helical) closing system remained up-to-date because of that famous key, which by its lateral circular movement pushed a mechanism similar to the old under-lever along the fore-stock of olden days, locking the break. Thus was born the idea of multiple possible locks at different points in order to reinforce the ability of the gun to fire heavier cartridges.

Et alors ? et bien c'est monsieur Webley qui en 1894 mis au point un syst�me a triple verrou ,syst�me qui dure encore de nos jours sur beaucoup de fusils de chasse ....et m�me sur les canons de tr�s fort calibre militaires !!!! :un d�bordement de la t�te de clef agit directement par friction et par pression sur une encoche a forme de gradin,taill�e en saillie dans le prolongement de la bande des canon et qui passe a l'ouverture et la fermeture sous la t�te de clef !

It was Mr. Webley who in 1894 created a system of triple locks, a system which continues to be used to this day on many shotguns and even on barrels of very strong military calibers. An overthrust of the head of the key acted directly by friction and pressure on a notch in the shape of a step, cut and projecting in the prolongation of the band of the barrels, which passed on opening and closing under the head of the key.

ET alors ? Verney Carron? et bien lui il a simplement modifi� ce g�nial syst�me HELICE a triple verrou de Webley en syst�me encore plus fiable a quadruple verrou dit H�licobloc de Verney Carron en d�posant un brevet en 1896 ! Jamais le syst�me H�lice n'a �t� brevet� , mais largement frapp� et �voqu� sur les boitiers en y accolant parfois les initiales du constructeur de l'arme !

Verney Carron? well, all he did was simply modify the triple lock HELICE system of Webley to a system still more reliable with quadruple locks called HELICOBLOC on which Verney Carron took out a patent in 1896! The actual Helice system was never patented, but for the most part the (generic) word was engraved and raised up on the breech of the gun, often including the initials of the builder of the gun.

Alors SVP ne dites pas que Verney Carron a invent� le H�lice ceci cela ! le syst�me de fermeture Dit H�lice existait d�ja depuis ..... 100 ans !avec la venue au monde du fusil a bascule !!!! et que le syst�me du double verrouillage trouva sa naissance vers 1880 et la combinaison de cette fameuse clef de dessus de boitier appel�e CLE TOP LEVER par le fameux Webley ,permit d'all�ger consid�rablement l'est�thique du fusil car dot�e de son verrou coulissant sous les planches de bascule en employant le fameux syst�me de fermeture HELICE !

So please don�t say that Verney Carron invented the Helice. The helical system of closing the breech called Helice already existed for 100 years since the brith of the center break long gun. A system of double locking was born around 1880, and the combination of that famous key above the breech called the �TOP LEVER KEY� by Webley, permitted the esthetic of the long gun to be considerably improved by being equipped with his sliding lock using the famous HELICE closing system.

Et alors ? et bien sachez qu'un seul fusil fut brevet� sous la marque HELICE ,c'est le fusil fabriqu� par Marcel Philippon et qu'ensuite une "Foultitude "de fabriquants d'armes baptis�rent leur arme a l'aide d'un pr�fixe HELICE et arborant parfois sur leurs boitiers le fameux HELICE . D'ailleurs en voici une liste prise sur un livre de Maurice Forissier ,livre qui m'avait �t� offert par mes anciens coll�gues d'�cole d'armurerie lors de mon d�part en retraite en 2007 .

It is well known that only one single long gun was patented under the mark �HELICE; I was the long gun fabricated by Marcek Philippon. And following that a multitude of arms makers baptized their gun with the aid of a prefix HELICE while adding their names or initials onto the breech or combining it with HELICE. Below is a list (of various uses of HELICE combined with names of gun makers) taken from a book by Maurice Forissier, which was given to me by my old workmates/collegues from the armorie school when I retired in 2007.